Man I like to think my twitter discussions with Noah prompt some of these conversations.
Noah and I both agree about living abroad. In fact the one piece of advice I give to young adults is to travel the world. Both my two older kids have lived for several years in the UK. In fact my son decided to settle there.
I spent 12-years in the military living in Europe and loved it. I was also raised in New Zealand. Now my job enabled me to spend extended periods of time working and living in South America. In fact I just returned from a 3-month stint in South America.
My observations:
1. Young people who think American isn't the greatest are deluded. It's sort of a form of self-hatred that has no basis on reality. I am not saying the US is perfect, but data speaks for itself. In just about every country in the world... more of their residents move the US relative to Americans emigrating to wherever.
2. Adding to above... even when Americans do live abroad as expatriates, they rare actually immigrate... that is, get their citizenship and plan to raise their families their permanently.
3. Many of the other countries that people fetishize. New Zealand, Australia, Scandinavian, Japan, etc.. are simply more racist than the United States. This blows peoples mind when I point it out, because Racism is such a big issue here. But the reason racism is such a discussed topic here is because we are so diverse. All these other countries are less diverse. And their black population are tiny. We talk about it here because we confront it... in other countries its just accepted.
4. When Noah and all the other progressive's and liberals talk about other countries, it usually focuses on infrastructure and social programs. All things that they have excellent points about, but as someone who is addicted to traveling, it's the cultures that I am most fascinated about.
5. South America gets short shrift. Honestly, if I didn't have ties to the United States, and I could work remote, I would move to South American. Latin Americans have a much richer social life than Americans. When I walk around in Salta, Argentina (you should visit), you see families out walking, groups of people sitting around at cafes spending hours taking. It's tradition for people to have BBQ's on the weekend and to invite their neighbors, friends, coworkers, etc...
6. More on 5. What really rocks about some foreign countries is a rich social fabric. As Americans we tend to self-isolate into these small groups. As we get older this social circle gets smaller. We might have occasional gatherings, but it's nothing like going to the pub every Saturday afternoon to get a pint and watch a football match. It's nothing like sitting at a cafe on a square and watching people walk by.
7. My last comment. If you are someone who works hard and has ambition. The type of person who believes in self-efficacy, the United States is hands down the best place to live.
The type of young left leaning young people who wish they could live in Scandinavia or some other European style country imagine that they could work less hard there... that they would basically have all their needs met by doing as little as possible.
People who want to live in Asia are sort of the same as the people who want to live in South America. I imagine me and Noah share this. We get a thrill out of living in a foreign culture. We admire what they have, but it's almost an adrenaline thing. It's the adventure.
Anyway... thanks for reading my rant if you got this far.
Nice topic and thesis. As in any other context: in some ways familiarity breeds contempt and absence makes the heart grow fonder. But in every case: travel broadens the mind, and living overseas brings appreciation of ways of living very different from our oen
If we truly wanted world peace, would take chunks of the military budget and pay for exchange programs to have almost everyone spend at least 6 months in another country.
Thank you for this post. The US is an awesome country. As an immigrant from Poland that lived there in the 80s, I often get very frustrated with the BS people here complain about. This may be a cliche point, but the ability to make enough money for a pretty good quality life is so easy if you work at it and watch your spending.
The "blunt and direcet" point about Americans is interesting. When I first moved here, it was glaring how nice everyone was, but it often came with phoniness and distancing. I think this sometimes prevents people from getting to know each other well quickly on a deeper level since the "cocktail conversation" interactions about nothing can drag on for a long time. I would prefer it if it was ok to ask more personal, insightful questions about someone soon after meeting them.
I agree wholeheartedly as a 22-year expat but I love that Americans are polite to their service staff and are careful about judging people by their appearances. Meanwhile, China is not 'advanced' (the term is problematic too) from the perspective of a Hong Kong resident (nor is it upper-income yet). Living abroad can be very lonely for BIPOC individuals, though, but it's easier for my American counterparts than others. You also end up finding the ties that bind with other expats if you go to any place that's relatively open to foreigners like most international financial hubs are.
Dec 18, 2021·edited Dec 18, 2021Liked by Noah Smith
Very good article, spot on conclusion.
The three years my family and I spent in Denmark -- our son went to Danish børnehave age 2-5 and spoke Danish without an accent by the time we left -- was eye-opening and very enjoyable. It game me both a renewed appreciation for many American things (entrepreneurialism, our openness/friendliness) and a first-hand experience of how we could be better (bicycling infrastructure, single payer healthcare, safe cities and towns). I'd do it again in a minute.
Yes, and sometimes one grows to appreciate one's home country after years abroad. I used to berate my native Canada as being very small-minded and parochial, but after living in many different countries, where massive division and civil conflict seems to be the norm, the fact that bilingual Stop signs in Quebec is about as divisive as it gets, made me appreciate my "home and native land" to a considerably greater degree.
Americans' concept of ourselves as "blunt and direct" is right up there among the most delusional lies the people of any country believe about themselves. My understanding is British, Irish and Australian people often find US culture saccharine and clothed in self-aggrandizing pieties. And of course northern Europeans are stereotypically very blunt in a way Americans are not. And then there was the foreign student in my grad program, who once said to preface a complaint about the program administration, "I don't know how to put this the Berkeley way, so I'll just say it the Indian way", by which she meant bluntly and without the marathon of conflict-averse circumlocution that girds any negative sentiment in the Bay Area especially.
Anyway, I ask you, could a blunt and direct culture have produced this cultural document:
Spot on! As a 19 year old I moved to Honduras for two years and dealt with bucket showers, met families cooking with an outdoor wood kitchen (the bad kind), washed clothes on a washboard/pila, and shivered trying to sleep on windy nights in the foothills of Tegucigalpa. Beautiful funny people and now have loads of appreciation for their country and USA that can’t come any other way.
As recent college graduate who recently moved to France, so many parts of this post ring true. I don't think I ever really felt a sense of patriotism until leaving the US, even though being abroad has brought many of the worst aspects of the US into focus. Living outside of my home country has made me realize that I have a personal identity as an American, and that my upbringing has made me different from people in other countries on some level.
I've found that trying to talk politics with some of my European friends has been enlightening. Whenever they explain local political issues with me or when I explain American issues to them, the entire problem we're talking about takes on a completely different light -- everyone involved genuinely wants to learn more and neither of us have preconceived opinions formed. This is one of the only contexts where you can have political discussion where you are neither arguing with nor indulging in the other person's beliefs.
I lived in China 5 years until Covid hit. I run a company that promotes travel for the very reasons you are advising. We gave 2000 university students funded/free (fee free) summer placements in China over the past few years. Now Covid restrictions are ending, I look forward to promoting travel again.
Personally though I fall into your category of those people that used to want to escape their country (and complain about it) but then travel led them to understand the good things about their country.. having moved home to UK during Covid I am unsure I’d live abroad ever again! 5 years abroad and now I truly appreciate the simple things about Britain, potable tap water, delicious clean air, a politics that encourages diversity and multiculturalism, legal rights. I do miss China’s frenetic excitement and energy though!
I wanted to share a quote with you . My grandpa, a doctor in Kenya during Britain’s colonial era, used to say to me “what do they of England know that only England know”. Kipling I think!
I bumped into the premise of this post myself via my wife, who is from Sweden. I had never been outside the US when I married her (36 years ago). 'Of course we are going to Sweden', she said, 'my family is there!'. So we did many travels--Sweden, Germany, Italy, Spain, Costa Rica, even the island of Margarita (Venezuela) before that country melted down. Meeting residents and experiencing the various places was awesome and gave me a much broader viewpoint of the world and the US. I also came to appreciate that every place has it's positives and negatives. I think the ultimate point is to be able to observe and participate in the life wherever you are without judging the place as simply 'bad' or 'good'. Of course one can choose to locate in a place that one sees is 'best', but no place is a utopia. The US has been a place where I have been able to work my way from a construction laborer up to real estate developer, and allowed me the freedom to visit other countries and hold the opinions that I have. Having seen other countries and met with their citizens, I can more fully appreciate these US opportunities, and also gain respect for what other countries/citizens are doing.
I’m very skeptical of that chart. Am I really meant to believe that there are currently only 6 million people who were born in China and living somewhere else?
Love the article, which prompts two comments and one question.
Seymour Martin Lipset wrote in “American Exceptionalism”, those who know only one country know no country.” Summarizes it well.
One really neat feature we enjoyed in Japan, was a hotel bathroom that also functioned as a dryer for clothes. Granted it was really small, but that made it possible to use it as dryer.
Glad to read you are updating your Japan guide. In 2019, we spent two weeks in Japan on our first visit and want to return. We did Tokyo => Takayama => Kanazawa => Kyoto => Osaka (with 1.5 days too short for your taste, I am sure) => Kii-Penisula => Tokyo.
It’s kind of an indictment on your country that you have to make this argument, TBH.
One example of a simple observation from international travel: I live in an extremely car-oriented country. But it is at least possible to walk just about everywhere where I live. Large parts of Florida, at least, don’t have sidewalks. It’s one of the most insane things I’ve ever seen.
Man I like to think my twitter discussions with Noah prompt some of these conversations.
Noah and I both agree about living abroad. In fact the one piece of advice I give to young adults is to travel the world. Both my two older kids have lived for several years in the UK. In fact my son decided to settle there.
I spent 12-years in the military living in Europe and loved it. I was also raised in New Zealand. Now my job enabled me to spend extended periods of time working and living in South America. In fact I just returned from a 3-month stint in South America.
My observations:
1. Young people who think American isn't the greatest are deluded. It's sort of a form of self-hatred that has no basis on reality. I am not saying the US is perfect, but data speaks for itself. In just about every country in the world... more of their residents move the US relative to Americans emigrating to wherever.
2. Adding to above... even when Americans do live abroad as expatriates, they rare actually immigrate... that is, get their citizenship and plan to raise their families their permanently.
3. Many of the other countries that people fetishize. New Zealand, Australia, Scandinavian, Japan, etc.. are simply more racist than the United States. This blows peoples mind when I point it out, because Racism is such a big issue here. But the reason racism is such a discussed topic here is because we are so diverse. All these other countries are less diverse. And their black population are tiny. We talk about it here because we confront it... in other countries its just accepted.
4. When Noah and all the other progressive's and liberals talk about other countries, it usually focuses on infrastructure and social programs. All things that they have excellent points about, but as someone who is addicted to traveling, it's the cultures that I am most fascinated about.
5. South America gets short shrift. Honestly, if I didn't have ties to the United States, and I could work remote, I would move to South American. Latin Americans have a much richer social life than Americans. When I walk around in Salta, Argentina (you should visit), you see families out walking, groups of people sitting around at cafes spending hours taking. It's tradition for people to have BBQ's on the weekend and to invite their neighbors, friends, coworkers, etc...
6. More on 5. What really rocks about some foreign countries is a rich social fabric. As Americans we tend to self-isolate into these small groups. As we get older this social circle gets smaller. We might have occasional gatherings, but it's nothing like going to the pub every Saturday afternoon to get a pint and watch a football match. It's nothing like sitting at a cafe on a square and watching people walk by.
7. My last comment. If you are someone who works hard and has ambition. The type of person who believes in self-efficacy, the United States is hands down the best place to live.
The type of young left leaning young people who wish they could live in Scandinavia or some other European style country imagine that they could work less hard there... that they would basically have all their needs met by doing as little as possible.
People who want to live in Asia are sort of the same as the people who want to live in South America. I imagine me and Noah share this. We get a thrill out of living in a foreign culture. We admire what they have, but it's almost an adrenaline thing. It's the adventure.
Anyway... thanks for reading my rant if you got this far.
Nice topic and thesis. As in any other context: in some ways familiarity breeds contempt and absence makes the heart grow fonder. But in every case: travel broadens the mind, and living overseas brings appreciation of ways of living very different from our oen
If we truly wanted world peace, would take chunks of the military budget and pay for exchange programs to have almost everyone spend at least 6 months in another country.
Thank you for this post. The US is an awesome country. As an immigrant from Poland that lived there in the 80s, I often get very frustrated with the BS people here complain about. This may be a cliche point, but the ability to make enough money for a pretty good quality life is so easy if you work at it and watch your spending.
The "blunt and direcet" point about Americans is interesting. When I first moved here, it was glaring how nice everyone was, but it often came with phoniness and distancing. I think this sometimes prevents people from getting to know each other well quickly on a deeper level since the "cocktail conversation" interactions about nothing can drag on for a long time. I would prefer it if it was ok to ask more personal, insightful questions about someone soon after meeting them.
So close, and yet so far from the updated guide for Japan !
I agree wholeheartedly as a 22-year expat but I love that Americans are polite to their service staff and are careful about judging people by their appearances. Meanwhile, China is not 'advanced' (the term is problematic too) from the perspective of a Hong Kong resident (nor is it upper-income yet). Living abroad can be very lonely for BIPOC individuals, though, but it's easier for my American counterparts than others. You also end up finding the ties that bind with other expats if you go to any place that's relatively open to foreigners like most international financial hubs are.
Very good article, spot on conclusion.
The three years my family and I spent in Denmark -- our son went to Danish børnehave age 2-5 and spoke Danish without an accent by the time we left -- was eye-opening and very enjoyable. It game me both a renewed appreciation for many American things (entrepreneurialism, our openness/friendliness) and a first-hand experience of how we could be better (bicycling infrastructure, single payer healthcare, safe cities and towns). I'd do it again in a minute.
Yes, and sometimes one grows to appreciate one's home country after years abroad. I used to berate my native Canada as being very small-minded and parochial, but after living in many different countries, where massive division and civil conflict seems to be the norm, the fact that bilingual Stop signs in Quebec is about as divisive as it gets, made me appreciate my "home and native land" to a considerably greater degree.
Americans' concept of ourselves as "blunt and direct" is right up there among the most delusional lies the people of any country believe about themselves. My understanding is British, Irish and Australian people often find US culture saccharine and clothed in self-aggrandizing pieties. And of course northern Europeans are stereotypically very blunt in a way Americans are not. And then there was the foreign student in my grad program, who once said to preface a complaint about the program administration, "I don't know how to put this the Berkeley way, so I'll just say it the Indian way", by which she meant bluntly and without the marathon of conflict-averse circumlocution that girds any negative sentiment in the Bay Area especially.
Anyway, I ask you, could a blunt and direct culture have produced this cultural document:
https://twitter.com/calebsaysthings/status/1201590348730032129
Spot on! As a 19 year old I moved to Honduras for two years and dealt with bucket showers, met families cooking with an outdoor wood kitchen (the bad kind), washed clothes on a washboard/pila, and shivered trying to sleep on windy nights in the foothills of Tegucigalpa. Beautiful funny people and now have loads of appreciation for their country and USA that can’t come any other way.
As recent college graduate who recently moved to France, so many parts of this post ring true. I don't think I ever really felt a sense of patriotism until leaving the US, even though being abroad has brought many of the worst aspects of the US into focus. Living outside of my home country has made me realize that I have a personal identity as an American, and that my upbringing has made me different from people in other countries on some level.
I've found that trying to talk politics with some of my European friends has been enlightening. Whenever they explain local political issues with me or when I explain American issues to them, the entire problem we're talking about takes on a completely different light -- everyone involved genuinely wants to learn more and neither of us have preconceived opinions formed. This is one of the only contexts where you can have political discussion where you are neither arguing with nor indulging in the other person's beliefs.
Fantastic thoughts
I lived in China 5 years until Covid hit. I run a company that promotes travel for the very reasons you are advising. We gave 2000 university students funded/free (fee free) summer placements in China over the past few years. Now Covid restrictions are ending, I look forward to promoting travel again.
Personally though I fall into your category of those people that used to want to escape their country (and complain about it) but then travel led them to understand the good things about their country.. having moved home to UK during Covid I am unsure I’d live abroad ever again! 5 years abroad and now I truly appreciate the simple things about Britain, potable tap water, delicious clean air, a politics that encourages diversity and multiculturalism, legal rights. I do miss China’s frenetic excitement and energy though!
I wanted to share a quote with you . My grandpa, a doctor in Kenya during Britain’s colonial era, used to say to me “what do they of England know that only England know”. Kipling I think!
Thanks for a great bit of reading!
I bumped into the premise of this post myself via my wife, who is from Sweden. I had never been outside the US when I married her (36 years ago). 'Of course we are going to Sweden', she said, 'my family is there!'. So we did many travels--Sweden, Germany, Italy, Spain, Costa Rica, even the island of Margarita (Venezuela) before that country melted down. Meeting residents and experiencing the various places was awesome and gave me a much broader viewpoint of the world and the US. I also came to appreciate that every place has it's positives and negatives. I think the ultimate point is to be able to observe and participate in the life wherever you are without judging the place as simply 'bad' or 'good'. Of course one can choose to locate in a place that one sees is 'best', but no place is a utopia. The US has been a place where I have been able to work my way from a construction laborer up to real estate developer, and allowed me the freedom to visit other countries and hold the opinions that I have. Having seen other countries and met with their citizens, I can more fully appreciate these US opportunities, and also gain respect for what other countries/citizens are doing.
I’m very skeptical of that chart. Am I really meant to believe that there are currently only 6 million people who were born in China and living somewhere else?
Love the article, which prompts two comments and one question.
Seymour Martin Lipset wrote in “American Exceptionalism”, those who know only one country know no country.” Summarizes it well.
One really neat feature we enjoyed in Japan, was a hotel bathroom that also functioned as a dryer for clothes. Granted it was really small, but that made it possible to use it as dryer.
Glad to read you are updating your Japan guide. In 2019, we spent two weeks in Japan on our first visit and want to return. We did Tokyo => Takayama => Kanazawa => Kyoto => Osaka (with 1.5 days too short for your taste, I am sure) => Kii-Penisula => Tokyo.
Next time: head north or south?
It’s kind of an indictment on your country that you have to make this argument, TBH.
One example of a simple observation from international travel: I live in an extremely car-oriented country. But it is at least possible to walk just about everywhere where I live. Large parts of Florida, at least, don’t have sidewalks. It’s one of the most insane things I’ve ever seen.